I've often thought about that without realizing that I was thinking about that. Many times, I've made decisions that I thought were best for my family, wife and children, that I wouldn't necessarily have made for myself. I've not taken risks I might have otherwise taken. I've tried to minimize the risk to our finances, our health (emotional and physical), as well as even mitigated against risk to our comfort level.
I think that many men would even try to preserve their own lives if they believed that the loss of it would have devastating effects on their family.
Having a family certainly changes what a man might think about his "price".
And that is to your credit! It has been my fate to know too many Single Moms, that have lived their lives to provide the best they could for their families.
Your Family is BLESSED to have You! Too often I have seen the wreckage caused by males (I do not consider them men) that did not adhere to your principles.
Thank you for your kind words. I live by biblical principles and teach my children to do the same. I thoroughly believe we will all have to give an account to our Creator one day for all we have done and all we were given to do.
In Shusaku Endo's novel "Silence" there is a scene where one of the missionaries is imprisoned by the Japanese. From his cell he hears sounds coming from outside which keep him awake at night. When he complains about it to his captors, they take him to where the noise is coming from. What he has been hearing are the groans of Japanese Christians who are being tortured (he has not been). He is told that if he wants to stop their suffering, he needs to renounce Christ. What should he do? What is his price? Which is more important, his faith (and his eternal fate) or easing the suffering of others? It is truly a diabolical choice that his jailers have presented him with.
Would it be truly "renouncing" his faith if he spared them from torture, but believed whatever he wanted in his heart? Would Christ be upset with him for stopping the torture, or for "renouncing" him?
It seems obvious to me as well. But I bring it up because as Catholic kids we were all told we should be ready and happy to suffer martyrdom for Christ, as unlikely as that might be. There was even a custom at Confirmation that the Bishop would symbolically slap the confirmand's cheek to demonstrate this willingness to pay the ultimate price. But no one ever discussed the possibility of a "Silence"-type scenario happening. (Now whether this was a fit topic for elementary school-aged children who were in absolutely no danger of being tortured or killed for their faith is another story.) My point is that when we talk about resistance and how we should do this or do that, we really underestimate other people's ability to find our weak points, to find what our price is, and we overestimate our ability to withstand that kind of pressure. The missionary in "Silence" was prepared to endure tortures and die for himself; what he was not prepared for was that other people--his converts--would be tortured to make him break. He was not prepared to have his mindset used against him because this was never part of his indoctrination. So what would be a no-brainer for you and me would not be so easy for someone like that. And the Japanese knew that, which is why they chose that method.
Thank you, Tam. This was what I was trying to get at with my questions. Price is more than just monetary.
In the clip, James focuses on money alone. Interestingly, money does not move me. I like it. I like it when I had more of it (I left my job and career over the COVID crime, losing income, health insurance, etc.), but it does not move me in a way that James averred.
Others' suffering moves me, and the thought of criminals making someone else suffer or die because of my price? That's a fundamental question -- and I also think it was the point my uncle was making to my father all those years ago.
You know, that is such a very intelligent, thoughtful, and really provocative response! I imagine these things to be something that I would really never know, never be able to say what I would do, in any given torture scenario. I certainly would retract my comment that the answer is "obvious," unless we are SURE what we'd do, and unless we are SURE what our captor/tormentors would do, too.
But I do think that while some thought about this sort of thing is perhaps useful in some ways, I hesitate to spend a lot of time thinking about it, because I simply could not really foretell what I would do!!
Thank you for a really great response... I'm glad to meet someone like you, b/c lately I've been finding a LOT of snotty, condescending people on SS who are gaslighting everybody -- or maybe it's just ME, LOLOL. Anyway, chin up, keep your eyes on the prize, and while I was raised in a similar sort of scenario -- Episcopalian -- I no longer follow any religion, but simply try to stay connected to Nature, to Truth, to my sense of Justice and Doing Good in this wild and woolly time we're in. Cheers! xo
Thank you! And while I no longer really follow any religion, lately I have been exploring the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, mainly because it was my late father's faith and by doing so I feel a connection to him that unfortunately I could not have had earlier for various reasons. But I have spent a lot of time rethinking how I was raised--I am 67 years old, never married, no kids, which in itself gives a lot of time to do a lot of thinking. One of my many passions is history and how people react given the situations they find themselves in versus how they say they would react. One thing I've learned is nothing is quite as simple as it seems. I've heard a lot of bold talk regarding the pandemic. Well, I managed to escape being vaccinated because number one, I was at an age and in a financial situation that if push came to shove, I was in a position where I could walk away if it came down to a choice between getting the vax and losing my job. I cannot tell you how freeing it was to reach the age of 65 and know that no matter what happened there was Social Security, Medicare, and my IRA. It made a big difference in my attitude and what I was willing to tolerate. At the same time I know all too well as a single woman what it is like NOT to have a social safety net in place so I do not condemn those who felt they had no choice but to take the vax. In fact my employer at the time tried to pressure me to shut up and accept the narrative concerning Covid; unfortunately for them they used the wrong argument on the wrong person, and I pretty much laughed in their face. But then, for the first time in my life, I was in a position to do so--and let me tell you, it felt good! I am not sure how you feel about Universal Basic Income; I've mixed feelings on the subject, but there is one thing I do know about being in a UBI-type situation and that is when you don't have to worry about a paycheck, you are a lot less inclined to put up with bullshit.
We have some commonality-- I, too, am a single gal, never married, no kids; I'm 63 years old. I was fired for not wearing a mask (and they actually LIED about why, but I was down to only two clients...not livable income. Still, I was HAPPY they fired me, as I wouldn't have quit my job only because of the VERY VERY low wages that Caregivers are generally paid-- they just freed me and I went on to get my Commercial Driving License. I drove an airport shuttle for about half a year, then had to quit that job as I was bullied and couldn't get enough sleep... I loved it, tho. Currently I'm in a family situation that has pretty much destroyed my likelihood of getting work... It's an unbelievable hell -- right now.
I do think it will get better, but, life is not easy! AND I've been accused of a FELONY assault of a Caregiver while trying to rescue my mother... (oh, the many, many ironies of my life!! No, I am Not Guilty.) I'm trying to make it to December and retire then, one year younger than usual, but I wouldn't be surprised if our country tanks by then and I'm left without any income at all. I have so many things I am capable of doing for money-- I'm a polymath, sometimes known as a "Jill of All Trades"-- But my brothers have smeared, slandered, libeled, defamed me to a degree that I can't GET WORK now... So I'm being evicted! LOLOL It's NOT funny, but it is, too.
I was raised mostly Episcopalian, but I stay out of religion now, have done, with a few toe-in-the-waters over the years, but... I'm in love with Nature and I consider Mother Earth to be my "god," although that word doesn't really get it for me... too anthropomorphic. ;) The Lutherans and the Episcopalians are quite similar, and friendly; they've rather joined ranks in order to survive. There's a LOT of good stuff in Christianity, but I won't go into why I don't follow it, because I don't want to seem like I'm trying to talk you out of it.
As for getting ANY inoculation, I'm utterly, completely unwilling. Period. I'll live in my car first. And as for UBI, OF COURSE it seems wonderful, but that's exactly why we need to be suspicious... First off, the US is heading for a financial crash that will make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk (probably-- I don't put negativity into the future, we never know how things will go!), but the main thing is... just what you said... When you ARE FINANCIALLY INDEPENDENT of the STATE, then they have far less means of twisting up your life... Just like "digital currency," if they can't just flip the "off" switch, you're in a much better position to resist their fuckery! Cheers, m'dear. xo
Don't worry about "talking me out of Christianity" as I already made my choice as to what to believe and what not to believe quite some time ago. I do agree with you that some pretty hard times are coming. I'm naturally quite suspicious of government as they like to get their nose into everything. As far as operating under the radar independent of the state, I think we need to look at cartels, drug dealers, gangs and similar groups as the kind of organization we are going to need to survive under such conditions. Not that I endorse such, but I think if the SHTF these are the people who will be best equipped to survive. I used to live next to an active drug dealer and it was quite interesting to see how their group dynamics played out. I was essentially given "protection" by them as long as I turned a blind eye to their activities. They did not want the police coming in so they did their own policing. I think we may be headed towards that kind of local, semi-feudal government.
I’ve actually thought about that question and the scenario. What is my price? What if they tortured my family? Is that my price? I’ve often though that if things were so incredibly bad that my family was being tortured in order to get to me, it’s not a place I would want any of them (or me) to reside in any longer anyway. Because of my faith, and knowing their faith and that there is life in eternity with the One True God…I would want my price to be unchanged. I know where I am going when this life is over. I know where each of my family is going when this life is over…therefore I would hope my price would remain unchanged. Now, could I bear it? I’m not as solid on my ability to stay unchanged in that moment.
I am struck by this, and by your Excellent response... I agree with you, and the fellow that commented on your "reason" (reasoning) sounds SO. MUCH. LIKE. some responses I've been seeing recently...
And JUST TODAY I was commenting on the feeling, after being subtly attacked by these "boys," that Substack is being infiltrated by what I picture as a group of young men, likely early twenties-ish, wearing military uniforms, perhaps, sitting in a room full of computers/monitors, doing the job of Mindfuckery, Gaslighting, Insulting people, and Divide and Conquer; they're roaming around and making sometimes subtle, but always some argument, about why it's WRONG for anyone to say anything that "they disagree with"-- sort of-- but really it sounds more like a certain mind-set... It sounds like INFILTRATION. It sounds like a pushing of an agenda... And it has to do with Israel, and with Russia, and with things like INTEGRITY, PEACE, FRIENDSHIP, JUSTICE... I think the CIA has landed...
I think your uncle is right. No man is an island and all that. Probably we don't the answer unless and until we're faced with it. Good inquiry, SJ. Thanks.
Well said. I can imagine what I would do, but who knows? In the end, all of my beliefs might desert me if I thought I could save a loved one by recanting.
I've often thought about that without realizing that I was thinking about that. Many times, I've made decisions that I thought were best for my family, wife and children, that I wouldn't necessarily have made for myself. I've not taken risks I might have otherwise taken. I've tried to minimize the risk to our finances, our health (emotional and physical), as well as even mitigated against risk to our comfort level.
I think that many men would even try to preserve their own lives if they believed that the loss of it would have devastating effects on their family.
Having a family certainly changes what a man might think about his "price".
Thanks, R2T. I made my observation that "Frank" commented on with that in mind.
And that is to your credit! It has been my fate to know too many Single Moms, that have lived their lives to provide the best they could for their families.
Your Family is BLESSED to have You! Too often I have seen the wreckage caused by males (I do not consider them men) that did not adhere to your principles.
Thank you for your kind words. I live by biblical principles and teach my children to do the same. I thoroughly believe we will all have to give an account to our Creator one day for all we have done and all we were given to do.
Duty is ours, results are God's.
John Quincy Adams
In Shusaku Endo's novel "Silence" there is a scene where one of the missionaries is imprisoned by the Japanese. From his cell he hears sounds coming from outside which keep him awake at night. When he complains about it to his captors, they take him to where the noise is coming from. What he has been hearing are the groans of Japanese Christians who are being tortured (he has not been). He is told that if he wants to stop their suffering, he needs to renounce Christ. What should he do? What is his price? Which is more important, his faith (and his eternal fate) or easing the suffering of others? It is truly a diabolical choice that his jailers have presented him with.
What do you think he should do?
Would it be truly "renouncing" his faith if he spared them from torture, but believed whatever he wanted in his heart? Would Christ be upset with him for stopping the torture, or for "renouncing" him?
It seems to me the choice is obvious.
It seems obvious to me as well. But I bring it up because as Catholic kids we were all told we should be ready and happy to suffer martyrdom for Christ, as unlikely as that might be. There was even a custom at Confirmation that the Bishop would symbolically slap the confirmand's cheek to demonstrate this willingness to pay the ultimate price. But no one ever discussed the possibility of a "Silence"-type scenario happening. (Now whether this was a fit topic for elementary school-aged children who were in absolutely no danger of being tortured or killed for their faith is another story.) My point is that when we talk about resistance and how we should do this or do that, we really underestimate other people's ability to find our weak points, to find what our price is, and we overestimate our ability to withstand that kind of pressure. The missionary in "Silence" was prepared to endure tortures and die for himself; what he was not prepared for was that other people--his converts--would be tortured to make him break. He was not prepared to have his mindset used against him because this was never part of his indoctrination. So what would be a no-brainer for you and me would not be so easy for someone like that. And the Japanese knew that, which is why they chose that method.
Thank you, Tam. This was what I was trying to get at with my questions. Price is more than just monetary.
In the clip, James focuses on money alone. Interestingly, money does not move me. I like it. I like it when I had more of it (I left my job and career over the COVID crime, losing income, health insurance, etc.), but it does not move me in a way that James averred.
Others' suffering moves me, and the thought of criminals making someone else suffer or die because of my price? That's a fundamental question -- and I also think it was the point my uncle was making to my father all those years ago.
Good response, and I would have expected nothing less. xo
You know, that is such a very intelligent, thoughtful, and really provocative response! I imagine these things to be something that I would really never know, never be able to say what I would do, in any given torture scenario. I certainly would retract my comment that the answer is "obvious," unless we are SURE what we'd do, and unless we are SURE what our captor/tormentors would do, too.
But I do think that while some thought about this sort of thing is perhaps useful in some ways, I hesitate to spend a lot of time thinking about it, because I simply could not really foretell what I would do!!
Thank you for a really great response... I'm glad to meet someone like you, b/c lately I've been finding a LOT of snotty, condescending people on SS who are gaslighting everybody -- or maybe it's just ME, LOLOL. Anyway, chin up, keep your eyes on the prize, and while I was raised in a similar sort of scenario -- Episcopalian -- I no longer follow any religion, but simply try to stay connected to Nature, to Truth, to my sense of Justice and Doing Good in this wild and woolly time we're in. Cheers! xo
Thank you! And while I no longer really follow any religion, lately I have been exploring the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, mainly because it was my late father's faith and by doing so I feel a connection to him that unfortunately I could not have had earlier for various reasons. But I have spent a lot of time rethinking how I was raised--I am 67 years old, never married, no kids, which in itself gives a lot of time to do a lot of thinking. One of my many passions is history and how people react given the situations they find themselves in versus how they say they would react. One thing I've learned is nothing is quite as simple as it seems. I've heard a lot of bold talk regarding the pandemic. Well, I managed to escape being vaccinated because number one, I was at an age and in a financial situation that if push came to shove, I was in a position where I could walk away if it came down to a choice between getting the vax and losing my job. I cannot tell you how freeing it was to reach the age of 65 and know that no matter what happened there was Social Security, Medicare, and my IRA. It made a big difference in my attitude and what I was willing to tolerate. At the same time I know all too well as a single woman what it is like NOT to have a social safety net in place so I do not condemn those who felt they had no choice but to take the vax. In fact my employer at the time tried to pressure me to shut up and accept the narrative concerning Covid; unfortunately for them they used the wrong argument on the wrong person, and I pretty much laughed in their face. But then, for the first time in my life, I was in a position to do so--and let me tell you, it felt good! I am not sure how you feel about Universal Basic Income; I've mixed feelings on the subject, but there is one thing I do know about being in a UBI-type situation and that is when you don't have to worry about a paycheck, you are a lot less inclined to put up with bullshit.
We have some commonality-- I, too, am a single gal, never married, no kids; I'm 63 years old. I was fired for not wearing a mask (and they actually LIED about why, but I was down to only two clients...not livable income. Still, I was HAPPY they fired me, as I wouldn't have quit my job only because of the VERY VERY low wages that Caregivers are generally paid-- they just freed me and I went on to get my Commercial Driving License. I drove an airport shuttle for about half a year, then had to quit that job as I was bullied and couldn't get enough sleep... I loved it, tho. Currently I'm in a family situation that has pretty much destroyed my likelihood of getting work... It's an unbelievable hell -- right now.
I do think it will get better, but, life is not easy! AND I've been accused of a FELONY assault of a Caregiver while trying to rescue my mother... (oh, the many, many ironies of my life!! No, I am Not Guilty.) I'm trying to make it to December and retire then, one year younger than usual, but I wouldn't be surprised if our country tanks by then and I'm left without any income at all. I have so many things I am capable of doing for money-- I'm a polymath, sometimes known as a "Jill of All Trades"-- But my brothers have smeared, slandered, libeled, defamed me to a degree that I can't GET WORK now... So I'm being evicted! LOLOL It's NOT funny, but it is, too.
I was raised mostly Episcopalian, but I stay out of religion now, have done, with a few toe-in-the-waters over the years, but... I'm in love with Nature and I consider Mother Earth to be my "god," although that word doesn't really get it for me... too anthropomorphic. ;) The Lutherans and the Episcopalians are quite similar, and friendly; they've rather joined ranks in order to survive. There's a LOT of good stuff in Christianity, but I won't go into why I don't follow it, because I don't want to seem like I'm trying to talk you out of it.
As for getting ANY inoculation, I'm utterly, completely unwilling. Period. I'll live in my car first. And as for UBI, OF COURSE it seems wonderful, but that's exactly why we need to be suspicious... First off, the US is heading for a financial crash that will make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk (probably-- I don't put negativity into the future, we never know how things will go!), but the main thing is... just what you said... When you ARE FINANCIALLY INDEPENDENT of the STATE, then they have far less means of twisting up your life... Just like "digital currency," if they can't just flip the "off" switch, you're in a much better position to resist their fuckery! Cheers, m'dear. xo
Don't worry about "talking me out of Christianity" as I already made my choice as to what to believe and what not to believe quite some time ago. I do agree with you that some pretty hard times are coming. I'm naturally quite suspicious of government as they like to get their nose into everything. As far as operating under the radar independent of the state, I think we need to look at cartels, drug dealers, gangs and similar groups as the kind of organization we are going to need to survive under such conditions. Not that I endorse such, but I think if the SHTF these are the people who will be best equipped to survive. I used to live next to an active drug dealer and it was quite interesting to see how their group dynamics played out. I was essentially given "protection" by them as long as I turned a blind eye to their activities. They did not want the police coming in so they did their own policing. I think we may be headed towards that kind of local, semi-feudal government.
Live Free or die with Honor. Thanks STL - powerful ...
I’ve actually thought about that question and the scenario. What is my price? What if they tortured my family? Is that my price? I’ve often though that if things were so incredibly bad that my family was being tortured in order to get to me, it’s not a place I would want any of them (or me) to reside in any longer anyway. Because of my faith, and knowing their faith and that there is life in eternity with the One True God…I would want my price to be unchanged. I know where I am going when this life is over. I know where each of my family is going when this life is over…therefore I would hope my price would remain unchanged. Now, could I bear it? I’m not as solid on my ability to stay unchanged in that moment.
I would like to think I.don't but I have a feeling that your Uncle spoke words of wisdom.
I am struck by this, and by your Excellent response... I agree with you, and the fellow that commented on your "reason" (reasoning) sounds SO. MUCH. LIKE. some responses I've been seeing recently...
And JUST TODAY I was commenting on the feeling, after being subtly attacked by these "boys," that Substack is being infiltrated by what I picture as a group of young men, likely early twenties-ish, wearing military uniforms, perhaps, sitting in a room full of computers/monitors, doing the job of Mindfuckery, Gaslighting, Insulting people, and Divide and Conquer; they're roaming around and making sometimes subtle, but always some argument, about why it's WRONG for anyone to say anything that "they disagree with"-- sort of-- but really it sounds more like a certain mind-set... It sounds like INFILTRATION. It sounds like a pushing of an agenda... And it has to do with Israel, and with Russia, and with things like INTEGRITY, PEACE, FRIENDSHIP, JUSTICE... I think the CIA has landed...
I think your uncle is right. No man is an island and all that. Probably we don't the answer unless and until we're faced with it. Good inquiry, SJ. Thanks.
Well said. I can imagine what I would do, but who knows? In the end, all of my beliefs might desert me if I thought I could save a loved one by recanting.
Ugh. Hope to never find out!
“If your price is not your life, then you are for sale.”
That is truth.
When tremendous dangers are involved, no one can be blamed for looking to his own interest.
Thucydides